Joseph Jack Frazer? Fraizer?

[madrock]

I received some written "family lore" that contains information on a Joseph Jack Frazer, son of Azodewin (Yahyysaw) who married the daughter of Grey Iron. No source references, of course!

I found information in the archives here at Oyate Research Center of a Joseph Jack Fraizer. I do not believe they are the same person because each of their off-springs differ.

This JJ Frazer of mine (not Fraizer), from what I can find so far, was a guide/hunting companion for/with Sibley.

I'm still digging but thought I'd try a request for some "quick" help from here before I start driving around looking for source documents.

If you haven't got anything better to do, I'd appreciate clearing up or affirming the two Joseph Jack's are different folks!

Thanks . . . .

[hermin1]

Joseph "Jack" Frazier was the hunting companion of Sibley. Joseph "Jack" had several "wives", including purportedly,a daughter of Grey Iron by whom he had a daughter.
Joseph Jack's mother was not Azodewin.
I believe there is a published biography on Joseph Jack that was written by Sibley. someone please correct me if I am wrong.

I found this link to a reference that talks about a series of articles by Henry H. sibley, I think,about Joseph Jack frazier.

collections.mnhs.org/MNHistoryMagazine/articles/11/v11i02p161-184.pdf

[madrock]

Thanks for the link. Footnote 33 states "Joseph Jack Frazier or Frazer was a Sioux mixed-blood who, after numerous exciting experiences with Indian war parties, became a fur-trader. He acted as a scout during the Sioux War of 1862. A series of articles about his " Life and Adventures," by Henry H. Sibley, who wrote under the name of " Walker-in-the-Pines," appears in the Sunday issues of the Si. Paul Pioneer from December 2, 1866, to March 17, 1867." Now I feel I can pursue information on Joseph Jack Fraizer. Interesting fellow. I want to read more.

According to the "family lore" I am looking over the daughter "Jack" had with the daughter of Grey Iron was named Mary Ann Frazer. Mary Ann then married Jean Baptiste LaF. Rocque. Some of my ancestors are those upper Mississippi trapper/trader Rocque's.

I've been away from this site for a long time because I was finishing up a family history on my Ebersold Great-great-grandfather. It is now published so I'm back trying to sort out all those early Rocque's from St. Paul down to Prairie du Chien.

Thanks again.

[hermin1]

madRock: the surname Frazier has also been spelled as Frazer, Fraiser or Frazier. his Indian Name I think was Many Lightnings In the Face, or some other name, I can't remember.
I have seen a reference that said Joseph "Jack" had a sister Sophia frazier, and others which claim he had a daughter Sophia Frazier who married Cetanwicakte. I have posted the Frazier Tree on Mike's website if you want to see it.
_____Joseph Jack's father was James frazier. James married Hazadawin,sister of chief Wakute. she and chief Wakute were said by several authors to be half bloods, because his father had married a white woman.joseph Jack,himslf admitted this in his Affidavit to apply for the Lake pepin Half Breed land Allotments back @ 1855-57.(Update)
Affidavit 225: Jack Frazer says"My father was a Scotchman, my mother always lived with the Indians, and her mother married a full blood Indian. She was Mdewakanton and a sister of chief Wakoota,but it is generally thought that she was a half-blood. I am,I believe only a quarter blood of said band, but know that I am of thsaid band. I married a full blood mdewakanton by whom I had a child,John three years of age and said John is five eights of each band."

[madrock]

hermin1, thanks for getting me off my duff and "hunting" again . . . .

In an earlier reply/post you stated:
"[H]is Indian Name I think was Many Lightnings In the Face, or some other name, I can't remember."

My comment/reply: . . . . I found an Ancestry.com forum comment stating a book was written by Henry Hastings Sibley. John, aka Jack, aka Joseph, aka Ite' Wakan (indian name meaning "Holy Face"), aka Ite' Maza (indian name meaning "Iron Face"). I believe these articles were actually republished in book form under the title "Iron Face: the Adventures of Jack Frazer," edited by Theodore C. Blegen and Sarah A. Davidson (Chicago, 1950).
. . . . Still searching . . . .


In an earlier reply/post you stated:
"Joseph Jack's mother was not Azodewin. I believe there is a published biography on Joseph Jack that was written by Sibley. someone please correct me if I am wrong."

My comment/reply: . . . . I have a copy of a publication called THE GENEALOGIST, Spring 1997, Volume 11, No. 1 which has an article "The origins of the Roc/Rock family of Prairie du Chien[sic] and Wabasha - Frontier Genealogy Among The Voyageurs" by James L. Hansen, F.A.S.G. It has documented references reporting the following:
Joseph Jack Frazer, b. ca. 1806
His parents: James/Alexander Frazer & Azo-de-win/Yahydsaw (Roc) Frazer
Azo-de-win/Yahydsaw Roc's parents: Joseph Roc (Rocque, Rock) & his third wife Harpiston
. . . . Still searching . . . .
The bold "third" was corrected from an earlier "second" 11/26/2010

I just found online that the MINNESOTA HISTORICAL SOCIETY LIBRARY - MANUSCRIPT BIOGRAPHIES COLLECTIONS - An Inventory of the Collection at the Minnesota Historical Society has the following:

"Frazer, Joseph Jack, 1806-1869", Biographical data, 1968. 4 leaves, Location: P939: Frazer, Joseph Jack, 1806-1869 . . . . I'm going to call in the morning to have them copy and send it to me. . . .

Thanks again,

"I've got Rocques in my head."
________
MadRock: that makes two of us.
I know this James hansen. He is the Genealogical Reference Librarian at the Wisconsin State Historical Archives. if you go to their website they have the contact information for their personnel. He is the one who transcribed the Affidavits for the Lake Pepin land Scrips.

do your references tell us anything about Joseph Jack's father(ie. where he was born,etc)?

MadRock: The affidavit(see above)of Jack Frazer(Joseph Jack Frazer/Fraser), if i read it right(and I am not sure about this),seems to indicate that his maternal grandmother was the sister of chief Wakute(Redwing), and she was a half blood. and his grmother must have been this Harpiston that Joseph roc(Rocque/Rock) married?does this make sense?

[cwiley525]

I have the book called iron face there was only 500 copy of this book.The book talks about Jack Frazer.The adventures of JACK FRAZE Frontier Warrior,Scout,and Hunter. A Narrative Recorded by "Walker-in-The-Pines" (Henry Hastings Sibly) Edited,with introduction and Notes,by Theodore C. Blegen and Sarah A. Davidson. Foreword by Stanley Vestal. THE CAXTON CLUB: CHICAGO 1950. Thisbook has a picture of Jack Frazer (Courtesy of Minnesota Historical Society).Yes this book is good reading of Jack Frazer.

[hermin1]

cwiley: thank you so much. I was afraid I had rocks in my head, re. the biography of Joseph Jack Frazer.Does your reference say anything about Joseph Jack's parents?

[cwiley525]

hermin 1 there is reference to his father and mother i,ll have to read or find it in the book i,ll get back to you cwiley525

[madrock]

hermin1: I do not understand how or why you edited my Nov 23, 2010 6:41pm posting instead of replying in the normal fashion. Does this mean someone can post a query or information and then someone else can edit it to whatever they want it to read?

You also edited your own Nov 23, 2010 5:09pm posting which makes it confusing when I try to read the initial posting and follow all the replies thereafter. I realize it is not malicious intent but I prefer to see a chain of replies when I post a message.

I'm no longer a "quick thinker" at age 75 and I also have Rocques in my head! LOL

[madrock]

Nov 24, 2010 16:41:25 GMT -5 cwiley525 said:

hermin 1 there is reference to his father and mother i,ll have to read or find it in the book i,ll get back to you cwiley525

cwiley525: I'd also be very interested in what the publication says about his parentage.

Mad Rock

PS: Happy Thanksgiving tomorrow Everyone! I cannot get all my tribe here until Saturday so that is when we will celebrate this American tradition.

[hermin1]

madrock: Please forgive me. I did not change anything you had posted. I just added information i had found that was pertinent to that particular posting.
Otherwise you would have had to scroll down to find a reply to your posting, or I would have had to click Quote and then your posting would have been repeated along with my additional notes. I figured what I did was a shortcut, and would save time.Again I am so sorry.
I wish you and your family a Blessed and Happy Thanksgiving.

[cwiley525]

Joseph Jack Frazer was bron 1806,at the mouth of Bad Axe River,now in the state of Wisconsin.Jack Frazer otherwise called by the (Dakota Band) E-tai-muz-zah or Iron Face. His father was James Frazer and his mother was Haz-zo-do-win sioux woman of the Red Wing Band. I can read more in the book to find anything more on his family. Jack frazer was my great,great,great,grandfather.EARLWIN FRAIZER WAS MY GRANDFATHER

[hermin1]

cwiley525: thanks uch. Yes please see what else you canfind on Joseph Jack's family. I very much appreciate your help and information.

[madrock]

cwiley525: My thanks as well. I have corrected the spelling of his parents names and added your book as the source.

1. I would be interested in knowing whether the book can confirm the following information that I found on a Frazer/Fraizer Ancestry.com forum:

"James [Frazer] was a brother of that famous Simon Fraser who discovered Fraser River in British Columbia. Manuscripts in the possession of the State Historical Society of Wisconsin confirm beyond question Fraser's paternity. James Fraser was born in Vermont about 1775 the son of Scottish Catholic immigrants who had come to America two years earlier. His father, Catpion Simon Fraser, served under Generlal Burgoyne, was captured at the battle of Bennington and died in prison."

2. I would also be interested in knowing whether the book mentions the parents of Joseph Jack Frazer's mother, Haz-zo-do-win?

The Leo Francis Rocque family history I've recently been reviewing indicates Azodewin's (or Haz-zo-do-win's) parents were Joseph Rocque and Harpiston, daughter of Red Wing.

This is from my database:

Joseph Rocque (1746-1817) is my great-great-great-great grandfather.
He first married Le Bleu, sister of old Wabasha (aka Wapahasha I). He next married a Dakota woman of the Sisseton band. He then married Harpiston, daughter of Red Wing (or a woman of Red Wing's band). This Joseph Rocque had several children by his first wife Le Bleu, one being Augustin Rocque (1787-1856).

Augustin (1787-1856) is my great-great-great-grandfather.
He married an Indian woman (Angelique) whose father was from the Fox tribe and her mother a Dakota from the Mdewakanton band. They had several children, one being Joseph Rocque (1811-1875).

Joseph Rocque (1811-1875) is my great-great-grandfather.
He married Madaline Robinson, a mixed blood, whose father was a mixed blood trapper/trader and her mother an Indiana woman from the Mdewakanton band.
The name I use on this forum (Mad Rock) is derived from my great-great-grandmother, Madaline Robinson Rocque.

The earlier Joseph and his son Augustin were the first trapper/traders in the upper Mississippi River region, now Winona & Wabasha Counties, MN and Buffalo & Trempealeau Counties, WI.
Wabasha, Wabasha Co., MN at one time was called Rocques Landing.

Well, this is more than you really wanted to know, but as I said before, "I've got Rocques in my head!"

[hermin1]

madRock: there was indeed a Captain Simon Fraser(b. 1729) who was captured by the Americans and in prison in a gaol in Albany ,NY. He died there in 1779. His widow Isabel moved her family to Canada in 1784. so far, I have only been able to confirm the existence of the sons,Simon Fraser,the famous Explorer, Angus Fraser his brother, and William Fraser at Ancestry.com. I may have forgotten a brother.i will go back and check Ancestry, and post any additional info. in this posting.

It might be worth it to go see these purported documents re. Joseph Jakck's parentage. at the Wisconsin State Historical Society Archives.Unfortunately, I can'tafford to go there.
___________
Update: As near as I can tell, the above three were Capt. Frasers only sons.However, this is a tree posted by a descendent of Captain Simon Frazier. Although it is documented, there is no mention of either a James, or james/Alexander Fraser/Frazer.
I might add that I am helping another descendent of Joseph jack Frazier. The descendents of Capt. Simon Frazier do not acknowledge the existence of James Fraser/Frazer.


Simon his son, the eXplorer died in Canada West, in 1862.

[hermin1]

madrock, thanks so very much for your information. Please do not think, that I dispute your information. I do not dispute it. it is fortunate for us that you did come to our web site, as by combining our rescources, maybe we can find out who in fact were Joseph Jack's parents.
I did come across mention of a Trader named ? Frazer who with ?Fisher and another trader were at Prairie du Chien in 1805 when Chief Wapahasha I or II was there with his warriors.
Ref. Chapter 3 History of Crawford County Wisconsin.It Mentioned that Frazer has a son living at Mendota,MN.Unfortunately, there are no census records for Prairie du Chien prior to 1810.

by the way, did your Joseph Rocque(jr.)'s son, Felix marry Susan Windgrow? and also My records show that Joseph Rocque married madeleine Robinson, daughter of Dennis robinson of Scotch -Irish descent and a full blood Mdewakanton sioux woman. madeleine's brother was thomas robinson, the husband of Wagiwin/Mary Jane Wakute.

[madrock]

Nov 25, 2010 10:46:29 GMT -5 hermin1 said:

madRock: there was indeed a Captain Simon Fraser(b. 1729) who was captured by the Americans and in prison in a gaol in Albany ,NY. He died there in 1779. His widow Isabel moved her family to Canada in 1784. so far, I have only been able to confirm the existence of the sons,Simon Fraser,the famous Explorer, Angus Fraser his brother, and William Fraser at Ancestry.com. I may have forgotten a brother.i will go back and check Ancestry, and post any additional info. in this posting.

It might be worth it to go see these purported documents re. Joseph Jakck's parentage. at the Wisconsin State Historical Society Archives.Unfortunately, I can'tafford to go there.
___________
Update: As near as I can tell, the above three were Capt. Frasers only sons.However, this is a tree posted by a descendent of Captain Simon Frazier. Although it is documented, there is no mention of either a James, or james/Alexander Fraser/Frazer.
I might add that I am helping another descendent of Joseph jack Frazier. The descendents of Capt. Simon Frazier do not acknowledge the existence of James Fraser/Frazer.


Simon his son, the eXplorer died in Canada West, in 1862.

hermin1: Thanks for the additional info on Joseph Jack Frazer/Fraizer's paternal parentage and earlier ancestors. I think that is as far back as I need to go right now on the Frazer/Fraizer side. I want to concentrate on his mother's ancestry.

Yes, it would be a very worthwhile trip to the Wisconsin State Historical Society in Madison but I live in Indianapolis, Indiana. I use Trempealeau, Wisconsin as my "location" in my Oyate Research Center profile as that was where I was born and grew up in the 30's & 40's. I joined the Navy in the 50's and made it a career. I never returned to Trempealeau except for annual family visit's and there never ever is enough time for research during those visits.

I would like to get up to Madison and spend weeks looking through their archives documents, especially anything to do with the Rocque family and Buffalo & Trempealeau Counties information.

[madrock]

Nov 25, 2010 12:39:06 GMT -5 hermin1 said:

madrock, thanks so very much for your information. Please do not think, that I dispute your information. I do not dispute it. it is fortunate for us that you did come to our web site, as by combining our rescources, maybe we can find out who in fact were Joseph Jack's parents.
I did come across mention of a Trader named ? Frazer who with ?Fisher and another trader were at Prairie du Chien in 1805 when Chief Wapahasha I or II was there with his warriors.
Ref. Chapter 3 History of Crawford County Wisconsin.It Mentioned that Frazer has a son living at Mendota,MN.Unfortunately, there are no census records for Prairie du Chien prior to 1810.

by the way, did your Joseph Rocque(jr.)'s son, Felix marry Susan Windgrow? and also My records show that Joseph Rocque married madeleine Robinson, daughter of Dennis robinson of Scotch -Irish descent and a full blood Mdewakanton sioux woman. madeleine's brother was thomas robinson, the husband of Wagiwin/Mary Jane Wakute.

Oh, I never thought you disputed my limited information. I'm glad you and cwiley525 helped me see that Joseph Jack's surname is variously referred to as Frazer and Fraizer. I thought they may be two different people.

- - - - - - - - - -

You asked about Joseph & Madaline (Robinson) Rocque:

Joseph Rocque (1811-1875) and Madaline Robinson Rocque (1810-1904) had four sons and two daughters. Felix (1859-1885) was the youngest of the six children. Felix married a Susan (maiden name unknown, have seen Upanna & Blacksmith). After Felix died, Susan Rocque married Joseph Windgrow.

Felix (1859-1885) and Susan had three children; Felix (1874-1913), Josephine (1880-1913), Mary (1884-1953). It is unknown if these three had children. The younger Felix never married. Josephine was married to Samuel Whipple. She died of TB and is buried at Prairie Island (Old Swedish Cemetery). Later, Josephine's younger sister Mary married the same Sam Whipple.

Joseph Windgrow and Susan had a son Paul.

I have more on the two Joseph & Madaline daughter's but should probably post it on a new (or old) Rocque thread.

[madrock]

Nov 25, 2010 12:39:06 GMT -5 hermin1 said:

. . . . My records show that Joseph Rocque married madeleine Robinson, daughter of Dennis robinson of Scotch -Irish descent and a full blood Mdewakanton sioux woman. madeleine's brother was thomas robinson, the husband of Wagiwin/Mary Jane Wakute.

My records indicate Dennis Robinson was a mixed blood (French & Dakota) trapper/trader. I'll have to look up that source again and bring it up on a new (or old) Rocque thread also.

[hermin1]

madrock, you don't need to post in anew thread. You can keep posting here.
Madrock plesse let me know your reference re. Dennis Robinson. Oh, I know do you have a copy of "Through Dakota Eyes"? See what it says about Madeleine's brother Thomas Robinson the scout and interpreter.They had the same parents.
___
I almost forgot, the Rocque name has also been spelled as LaRoche, LaRocque, and LaRock.